Origins of evil

[johngaltlives]

Enough softball questions Bro. Mike. Let me throw you a fast one.

(I have a definite opinion on this one. I wanted to see what others thought and get people to stretch a bit.)

Since God is a perfect unity, invisible and incorporeal, transcending all things material, and therefore inconceivable and incomprehensible. He is likewise unchangeable, and transcends space and time. But His power is limited by his goodness, justice, and wisdom. He is not capable of evil. If He is not capable of evil then there are in fact limits to His power. If He did not create evil (which I do believe) but He has knowledge of evil; and since He is, was and always will be then He would have had to have knowledge of evil prior to the existence of evil. Ergo He created evil by the mere thought of its existence.
Your thoughts.

[Mike Miller]

Thanks for throwing the heat. At least it's not a change-up. Those kill me.

The short answer is that God does indeed cause evil things to happen, but he is not guilty of commiting evil Himself. He wills certain things to happen through the free moral choices of humans, but He does not actually do any evil. Now, lest that seem like some Orwellian doublespeak, allow me to illustrate using Scripture.

First, consider the crucifixion. In Isaiah 53, that great Messianic prophecy, we read that the Messiah would be "smitten by God" and that "it was the will of the Lord to crush him." Then, in Acts 4:27, we read that Herod, Pointius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews, in the crucifixion, did whatever God's "hand" and "plan had predestined to take place." Also, in Acts 2:23, we see that Jesus was "delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God." Nevertheless, God is not held guilty, but the people who carried it out are. Therefore, torture and murder were ordained by God, but sinful people willfully carried it out. (and for those who would say, "Well, if it's God's will, then why does God punish?" I would refer you to Romans 9:19-21 where Paul asked and answered that very question. Simply, that God can do what He wants)

Next, consider Joseph's experience with his brothers. Those brothers hated Joseph, sold him into slavery, and lied to their father. Wicked, evil actions if ever there were any. But Joseph says later to his brothers, "God sent me before you. . . . So it was not you who sent me here, but God" (Genesis 45:7-8). Even later, he says "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today" (Genesis 50:20).

Therefore, what we see is that sinful people act willfully. We deliberately choose to do evil, but God limits, permits, and so ordains that our own evil actions will fulfill his perfect plan. So, did God create evil--even if indirectly by seeing it and allowing it to happen? The answer is no. God's plan is good, from start to finish. Everything He does is perfect and good--even when He uses human evil. God is not guilty of sin; we are. As to what was in His mind before creation . . . I cannot even speculate. The witness of Scripture, however, teaches us that nothing God does is sin, even when He uses sin to do it. (BTW--this is the theological position known as combatibilism. I am definitely a compatibilist).

One final word from the Lord in Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord who does all these things."

[johngaltlives]

I too ascribe to somewhat of a compatibilist philosophy (that should be another post). I do think however that Christians are looking for a linear causation in the development of evil. That is why so many ask, “Did God create evil?” “When did evil first begin?”

They read the Bible as a linear time line when in God’s eyes- the past, present and future are all the same. Time, is merely a man made concept based on our current reality of living outside of paradise. Once we enter His kingdom, then time will have no meaning. Einstein’s law of relative simultaneity comes to mind in that a being that is stationary sees an event as happening at a particular time and place while a being in motion sees the event occurring differently relative to time and space. God sees “time” the same regardless of “when” it occurred. According to Hume, “…we reason inductively by associating constantly conjoined events, and it is the mental act of association that is the basis of our concept of causation.”

Hume also proffered that causes cannot be determined by effects.

Given the previous two proffers I would argue that because we see evil occurrences we cannot assume that God created evil or the occurrence. I believe that evil is a natural by-product of free will. To me evil is not the occurrence of a natural event but an occurrence based on one being with free will violating God’s laws with the express purpose of violating God’s will and/or causing harm to another being. A hurricane is not evil in and of itself but Saddam Hussein’s sons were evil. A hurricane has no intent to harm but those two individuals did.

That is where your post using the phrase “God causes evil” may make some people shudder. I would approach it from the point that God knows of the evil that will occur and allows it for His purpose.

When Satan fell (actually was cast (Ez. 28:16-17, Is. 14:12-15)) from heaven; it was out of pride. He wanted to be god. That specific free will action by Satan appears to be the first instance of sin; therefore one could argue that was the beginning of the development of evil.

Satan then sought to tempt Adam and Eve with the same temptation to which he had succumbed. From then on God used the work of Satan to accomplish God’s purpose. Again, we see all of this as happening thousands of years ago but to God it is simultaneous. God did not cause Satan to fall, Satan made the choice. One could argue that God “caused” Satan to fall by creating Satan with the psychological or egotistical flaw that would allow Satan to even have the thought of wanting to be god. I would differ there in that God has created all things for His purpose and that the choices we make are foreknown by Him and allowed for His purpose. Lucifer was created perfectly as the most beautiful angel; created to accomplish God’s purpose.

God will allow evil at times just as a fire fighter will allow a section of forest to burn to save a city on the other side of the hill. God uses all things to accomplish His will. Some Christians have had evil things done to them, but when they commit their lives to God, He can use those experiences to accomplish great things. We seek solace in God’s word, comfort in prayer and yet we search our own minds for a rational explanation for “why” evil exists. There is only One, who knows the answer; and some day soon we will be able to sit at His feet and understand “why?”

[Mike Miller]

First, let me be clear. I never said, "God causes evil"--period. I said, "God causes evil things." Not splitting hairs, but evil resides in the hearts of sinful humans. We are wicked and are inclined to do evil. God uses our evil hearts and inclinations to cause events.

Second, as for the concept of God causing evil events for His good purposes--that might indeed make people shudder. We have a tendency to imagine God the way we would be God, but sometimes the way He reveals Himself to us is not in line with the way we think He should be. Consequently, we try to explain things away, or at the worst to accuse God of unrighteousness. Again, I think we see in Romans 9 where Paul was dealing with such potential issues. But we need to accept that God's thoughts and His ways are so far above ours that we cannot fully comprehend His thinking and doing. I think Hume is on the same page with that.

Scripture, however, must be our witness, and Scripture clearly indicates that God is behind certain sinful actions without sinning Himself. Again, looking at the Joseph account, the exact same phrase is used to describe the brothers' intentionality and God's. So, who is responsible for Joseph being sold into slavery--God or the brothers? My answer is, "Yes." God did it. The brothers did it. But the brothers sinned, and God did not. He simply used their sinful inclinations to accomplish His perfect plan.

Job is another fine example. Satan is clearly the one who so tragically inflicted Job, but Job attributes it to God. However, we read that "in all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong," and that "Job did not sin with his lips." So, who did it--God or Satan? Yes.

God also caused the death of Christ. But he used sinful people--people who wanted to kill Jesus--to do it. It was predestined and planned perfectly by God. But the people were guilty of sin, while God was exalted as both the just and the justifier. Isn't that cool?

The only reason this should cause some to shudder is because they want God to be a certain way. I know, I've wrestled with these things as well because the way God reveals Himself in the Bible has not always lined up with the God I had imagined. I had created Him in my own image. Someone once said, "God created man in His own image, and man has been returning the favor ever since." Yep. Guilty. That's why we must strive to see God as he has revealed Himself. Sometimes it just doesn't make since, but like you said, we just don't see it clearly yet. I think that's why Paul, after four chapters of discussing the sovereignty of God, finally just breaks into doxology at the end of Romans 11:

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:33-36 ESV)

Finally, I will just say a brief word about free will. There is no such thing. Now, wait a minute before you start throwing things at me through cyberspace. I did not say that we do not make choices. Everything we do is a willful choice. However, no will is completely free. On the one side of that, we are so steeped in sin that if God did not restrain us, we would be much more wicked than we are. That is how he sometimes accomplishes His will, by lifting the restraints. I shudder to think how evil I could actually be were it not for God's grace. How wonderful to know that he restrains me. In fact, that is part of the foundation of our doctrine of perseverance of the saints (i.e., that we cannot lose our salvation). Why can't I choose to walk away and renounce my faith in Christ? Is it because I am so good and that I would never exercise my free will like that? No, it is because God has constrained my and will not allow me to walk away. Thus, my will is not completely free. Thank God!

In addition, sometimes, people are not free to choose the good. Pharaoh could not choose not to act like he did. In Isaiah's day, the people would not be allowed to repent until God brought about the full measure of judgment. Judas could not repent and choose not to betray Jesus. Pilate could not have chosen to let Him go. And all of the events surrounding the end times must happen exactly like God said they will. The guilty parties are not free to choose differently. To say that God simply knows what will happen doesn't line up with Scripture. He has decreed certain events (and not just allowed--see Isaiah 14:26-27), and the people involved cannot do otherwise. Again, he predestined the events of the crucifixion. That does not mean He just knew about it. He brought it to pass in the exact manner that it did. Therefore, we are moral creatures who make moral choices every day. However, our choices are limited by God's perfect plan. Our wills are thus somewhat less than free.

Well, that's all for now, but I'm really enjoying this discussion. And by the way, for anyone reading, I know that it's hard to tell what someone's attitude is when they write. Please be assured that this is all great fun for me. I never get upset about this stuff, and I don't argue (in a contentious way) about it. My belief is that these discussions are good for the church. They stretch us and grow us, and ultimately serve to cause us to fall on our faces before the only wise God as we realize just how small we are and how great He is.

[gparker]

A dear friend once told me there was was no such thing as a dysfunctional family because there was no such thing as a functional family. I couldn't help thinking of that when you said there was no such thing as free will. Two concepts that we are so used to believing but, not necessarily true.

I totally agree with what you said about free will. Also, the quote aobut Joseph's brother,"He simply used their sinful inclinations to accomplish His perfect plan."

The 'so what' in all of this for me is to not waste any time in unforgiveness. There is no such thing as a functional family. Forgive the unkind word or action. Let go of the pride and rejoice in it. The suffering you may be feeling now might be our precious Lord's way of revealing another bit of His glory to you later on. Rejoice in that! Fall flat on your face and thank Him that He would love you so much to refine you and reveal His glorious self to you.

I better close and get on my face and rejoice. Lunch with my sisters this weekend.

[johngaltlives]

I agree with your proffer that human beings want to define God according to certain concepts. (My contention) Our finite brains cannot conceive the glory and majesty of God. Therefore, we use past experiences, images and symbols that are imprinted in our minds to develop an "image" of God. For millennia man has been trying to create God in man's image.

God cannot reveal Himself to us in all of His majesty because of the finite capacity of our minds to comprehend all that is God. Yes, this is a limit He put upon us, but it is out of love.

When we see Him in heaven we will be drawn to Him because of His tremendous goodness and love. There we will see Him in all of His glory and there will be no question as to who is Lord of Lord and King of Kings. Every knee shall bow.

Some people wonder why God has chosen such a way to reveal Himself to us. Why not just create us all with the ability to understand everything that He is when we were created? They feel that God must be cruel to put us through such an exercise or test here on earth with all of its evil and pain. Why not just create us as we will be in heaven, with no pain, no sorrow and no evil. Why not just create us so we only experience love and joy and move on?

I believe that God did not create us with immediate understanding and comprehension of His majesty because He does love us. He chose to make His character and existence less certain for the sake of our freedom. This is for our own character formation and development, that we might seek Him and draw closer to Him. He has to maintain a distance from us so that we might choose Him.. if He were to show Himself in His entirety, we would be so in awe of His goodness and majesty we would be drawn to Him out of necessity rather than by choice. Every knee would bow immediately. Therefore, true free will would be negated because of the obvious conclusion given the choice- turning your back on the incredible majesty of God or accepting nothingness. There would be no choice because His goodness is so incredible you would only be able to choose Him.

By creating us with limited capacity to understand we must apply choice to our decisions within the limits of good and evil. I agree with you Bro. Mike that free will is not a totally open-ended proposition. The limits He has placed on our understanding and in His self-revelation are so that we must make choices. In a sense we are still being created everyday. As we develop and grow in our Christian understanding and love for Him we are becoming more Christ-like which is the perfect representation of what God wants us to be here on earth. I feel Leibenz argued this point of "why God choose this method of creation" correctly; (paraphrase) that a perfect God created a perfect world perfectly to acheive His perfect purpose.

We struggle to figure out why do things happen? Why did God create "me" this way? With all of my issues and sinful nature? The answer to me is, "Because He loves me so much that He sent His only begotten Son to die for ME." Since He sent His Son for Me, then all other arguments about "why" seem to fall in line behind the logic and truth of that one beautiful verse of scripture.