Same Sex Marriage

[guest]

With the recent events surrounding same sex marriage, there seems to be a lot of confusion from Christians on where to stand on this.
I for one, do not agree with same sex marriage because it goes against God's plan of the His creation & the family structure. I will never vote that it is okay to call marriage anything else other than a man marrying a woman.
I also think the general state of more & more churches allowing & supporting homosexuality is gaining quite rapidly. This too is wrong which I have an extremely hard time with since this issue is addressed in both the Old & New Testament.
What I do have a hard time with is for same sex couple to be denied the same rights when it comes to the legal issues of hospital issues, their children if one should die who isn't biologically related, etc. Each state has different laws on of this, but as Christians should we deny others the same rights that heterosexuals have even when they are not married, but attached to someone? I do work with people who are in same sex relationships that have children. I do not doubt that they love their children or partners any less than a heterosexual couple does. I cannot support their lifestyle, but should they be denied the same benefits as heterosexuals?
I don't know if that makes sense, but I think for a lot of Christians it is a struggle. And I'm not talking about the people who tag themselves as Christians that support homosexuality, women preachers, or other activities that God has clearly defined as wrong & sinful. There are tons of those type of self identified "christians" who sadly are doing much damage to what it really means to be a professing Christian & the church. What are your thoughts on how Christians should handle the legal aspects of this situation?

[Mike Miller]

The issue of "same-sex marriage" is certainly a hot topic today, and I appreciate your question, as many Christians are struggling with how to think and respond biblically. On the one hand, this issue is a simple one for the Christian. The Bible is clear that homosexual behavior is sinful and deviant. It is also clear that by definition, marriage is the lifelong union between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:4-6). According to the biblical framework, then, "same-sex marriage" is an oxymoron. There can be no such thing.

On the other hand, even for the Christian, the issue is complex. I say it is complex because of the questions you raised about legal rights and protections. Should people who love each other not be afforded the same legal status as others simply because of their sexual preferences? As Christians, shouldn't we value people even if we don't approve of their lifestyles? Therefore, while it might be easy for us to define marriage and develop a biblical position, what are we to think about public policy?

"Same-sex marriage" advocates believe that homosexuals are facing discrimination because they do not have the same right to marry that heterosexuals have. That is false. If marriage is a union between a man and a woman, homosexuals have the same right to enter into that union with someone of the opposite sex. They are being denied nothing. This is why they ultimately want to redefine marriage to be inclusive of their sexual preferences. They want to have the same kind of legal union, and they want to call it marriage. So, what's wrong with that? Several things.

First, to allow homosexuals to "marry" one another strips marriage of one of its most fundamental purposes--procreation. To redefine marriage to allow for same-sex unions would be deny the significance of having and raising children. Even if God is removed from the equation, nature has settled this issue for us. Two men, or two women cannot make babies. Why is this important? This is what sets marriage apart from any other relationship. Marriage is more than just two people who love each other. Marriage is a special kind of relationship that results in the creation and development of the next generation. Homosexual unions can never fulfill this role.

Second, even though homosexuals can adopt or use other means such as surrogacy or in vitro fertilization, they do not provide the balanced family structure that is only found in marriage. Their children will be raised, either with two female parents or two male parents, thus failing to provide the complementarian role models afforded by a mommy and a daddy. While many parents are bad parents (and this isn't only true of heterosexuals), the data clearly shows that the healthiest home is one that has both mother and father present, married, and actively involved in the lives of their children.

Third, if marriage is to be redefined simply based on a committed relationship between any two people who love each other, and if procreation is not a factor, then should it also include siblings or best friends? And if it's based on sexual preference alone, should relationships with multiple partners be included? What about people with weird fetishes who have romantic feelings toward their pets or inanimate objects?

Simply (and not just from a biblical point of view), if the definition of marriage is based solely on emotional bonds with or without a sexual component, and if procreation is not an essential element, then what makes it a special relationship? Eventually, any group of people with any kind of affections would be able to make the same case for their particular segment of the population. Then those people would also want the same rights (property, custody, hospital visitation, etc.) as those in monogamous heterosexual marriages. But if marriage is defined traditionally, then it is a unique social bond and the foundation of family and society. Such a union should therefore entitle its participants to certain unique rights and privileges.

I'm sure some will disagree with me, but I see the only tenable Christian view as the one that upholds the sanctity of marriage as demanded by both Scripture and nature. A danger we now face as Christians, however, is the spirit with which we participate in this discussion. Let's be sure to make our case rationally and respectfully as we treat one another as highly valued individuals created in the image of God. Emotions tend to flare on this issue, but we need to be careful to honor Christ in all our dealings with others (2 Timothy 2:23-26; 1 Peter 3:15-16).

[Guest]

So since homosexuals should not marry because they cannot reproduce, what about heterosexual couples who cannot conceive? Is that marriage invalid since they are not reproducing? Do Christians believe being homosexual is a choice?

My point is, gay people pay taxes that pave roads, fund schools, pay police officers, run the government etc. If we deny them equal rights, we should not be taking equal taxes.

And as far as a Christian point of view, I don't understand how a Christian can have the attitude of " Since you're gay, even though you did not choose to be gay, you're going to hell. But it's cool, I love you anyway because the Bible tells me I have to". It doesn't work like that. Or at least it shouldn't work like that. It's a very judgemental attitude. If someone believes same-sex marriage is wrong, I respect that opinion whole heartedly. But to enforce that belief on people you don't know and say " you can't marry your boyfriend of 20 years because I don't want you to" just doesn't make sense.

But Dr.Miller, I'm not trying to impose my beliefs on your message board and I hope you don't take this post as anything hostile. I've been a resident of Kenner for a long time and I just wanted to get someone who knows what they're talking about's opinion on this topic. I pass your church often so I looked on the website for more info on Christian beliefs and this was the perfect place to get it.

[Mike Miller]

Dear "Guest,"

Thank you for chiming in, as all opinions are welcome here. It is, after all, a discussion board. We like to engage in discussion.

I must say, however, that you--like most who disagree with us on this issue--are either misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I said. I did not say that the only reason homosexuals can't marry is because they can't reproduce. What I said was that reproduction is "one of" marriage's most fundamental purposes. While some heterosexual couples are infertile, only a man and a woman can provide the kind of balanced and healthy family structure essential for the rearing of children. In fact, I am so thankful for the recent emphasis on adoption we are seeing in the evangelical church today, and I'm also grateful that we have couples in our church currently pursuing adoption. Moreover, while some heterosexual couples are infertile, 100% of homosexual couples are. They can never ever reproduce, so it's a categorical issue, regardless of the exceptions.

I will also reiterate that no homosexual is being denied any rights. Marriage is a relationship between a man and a woman. That's what it means. Words have meanings. Just because someone calls an oak tree an airplane does not make it so, and just because someone wants to call a homosexual relationship a marriage doesn't make it so. Everyone has the same rights to marriage in our country. Everyone. No man or woman is being denied the right to marry someone. And no man or woman is being denied the right to have a sexual relationship with any consenting adult.

You characterize the Christian attitude as: "Since you're gay, even though you did not choose to be gay, you're going to hell. But it's cool, I love you anyway because the Bible tells me I have to." While you might find some with that absurd attitude, I personally don't know anyone like that. I'm sorry if you do. You surely didn't get that from me. I don't believe anyone is going to hell because they are gay. Who believes that? Christian doctrine teaches that all people have offended God and are subject to eternal judgment, but that because Jesus Christ suffered in our place--as our substitute--God offers the free gift of eternal life to all who place their trust in Jesus. It doesn't matter if the person is gay or straight. Salvation is freely available to all who turn to Jesus. You can see in more detail what I believe about homosexuality in general here: askmike.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=96

Also, while the Bible does tell us to love everyone, we can't just love people because God said so. Our love for others comes from God (1 John 4:19), and we love people because all people are created in the image of God and are therefore worthy of love and respect. Homosexuals are no worse sinners that I am or any others. There are Christians who rail against gay people, but most of us do not. You will find that gay people are embraced, respected, and treated with great dignity at our church. We don't single them out (in fact, we don't even talk about it much, because the Bible talks a lot more about other sins).

You also commented that to say to someone, "You can't marry your boyfriend of 20 years because I don't want you to" wouldn't make much sense. I agree. But then again, who in the world says that? For one thing, I'm only talking about the definition of marriage. Marriage is defined as a union between a man and a woman. By definition, two men or two women can't marry. What they do is simply not marriage. I understand that some want to redefine the term and the concept. I have stated why I oppose that. Second, my beliefs about homosexuality have nothing to do with what I want or don't want. They have to do with what the Bible says. By faith, I believe that the Bible is God's revelation to us. It is His Word. I believe that God has the right to define right and wrong. He has defined homosexual behavior as sin. If I am true to my beliefs, then I have to agree with God. You certainly don't have to agree with me, but as a Christian I have no choice but hold the position I hold. But again, it's not the only sin. I'm really more concerned with the sins I struggle with (by God's definition) and the sins that are affecting the church where I pastor.

Thanks again for chiming in. I certainly do not take your comments as being hostile in any way, and I'd love to meet you. I can like and respect people I disagree with. Come back again sometime, and feel free to drop in on our worship services. I think you will find our people warm and inviting.

[Guest]

Well I think opposing gay marriage morally is a very different issue than opposing it legally. Morally, I understand you think it's a sin because the Bible says so. (The Bible also says its ok to own slaves and women must be submissive to their husbands, but that's a whole other song and dance.) But to oppose that same-sex marriages be recognized by the law is a totally different. To me, when you strip down the arguement to what it really is, it's just mean. The only word I can think to describe it is mean. It's denying someone the right to live their life the way they want. It's like saying " I don't like sandwiches. I think they are gross and I never want to eat them. Therefore, no one should be allowed to eat a sandwich. In fact, let's make them illegal". God has given man free will for a reason. Whether you like it or not, marriage has changed drastically in the last 100 years. It used to be about families coming together for security and property. Now, it's about love, 2 people choosing to live life side by side. In another 100 years, who knows what marriage will be about (or even if it will still exists.)

I believe organized religion, especially a church such as yours, brings SO MUCH positive into peoples lives. I think everyone would benefit from being in a positive church community such as yours. But many people stay away because of the church's stance on social issues. Now, do I think the church should conform to society and just have a "go with the flow" attitude? No. The church is based on the Bible, and the Bible is a done deal. It's not changing. I don't know exactly what the answer is. But I do know denying someone the right to live life the way THEY choose is wrong.

[Mike Miller]

Guest, thanks again for your input. I do want to respond to your "mean" comments, though. To begin with, we don't want to deny anyone any rights. To begin with, redefining a term and an institution is not a right. That doesn't mean it can't be done, but it's not a right. In fact, marriage is not a constitutionally protected right, and like I said, anyone can marry if they want to. We also don't want to deny homosexuals the freedom to have relationships and live with whomever they want. They can live however they want to. However, applying moral restraint for the good of society and the protection of children is not mean. It is actually loving and rational.

For example, polygamy is illegal. Is it mean to deny people to freedom to be polygamists? No. We can all acknowledge that the outlawing of polygamy is good for society and good for children.

Then, if pressed further, how far are we willing to go in redefining marriage? Is it ok between any two people who love each other? What about between an adult and an adolescent? What about between 37 people who all want to be married to each other? What about when some guy wants to marry his dog? What about the guy I saw on TV who has romantic and emotional feelings for his car? Either marriage has a definition with boundaries or it doesn't. You might say, "Well that's ridiculous. No one would ever want to say it's ok for 37 people to marry each other or for a man to marry his dog." But why not? If we start stretching the boundaries, who gets to decide how far they are stretched? Are you being mean to deny the man the right to marry his dog? No. You're being moral and expressing common sense.

If I truly believe that God, who created us all, has defined marriage as something that happens between a man and a woman, then I am not being mean to say that God's definition is the only one that matters. My faith informs not just my private beliefs, but also my public positions. An organization exists in our country called the North American Man/Boy Love Association (NAMBLA). They believe that men and boys should be able to have sexual relations. I think those kinds of relations should be illegal. They think I'm mean for forcing my beliefs on them. After all, just because I believe their perversion is wrong shouldn't necessarily restrict them from having the freedom to live how they want to. But every one of our laws is ultimately grounded in morality. Murder, theft, rape, and physical abuse are all illegal because we see them ultimately being morally wrong. Since I believe that God is the source of moral law, I believe our civil laws should be founded on His standards. Why is it wrong for a grown man to have sex with a boy? Is it just because I don't like it? No. It's because it's morally wrong, and most of us understand that some kind of objective standard exists for morality. Who gets to decide what that standard is? God does. That's the only answer that makes any sense.

I just want you to see that I am not being mean by wanting to protect society and children by preserving the definition of marriage. I'm merely acting consistently and rationally with my belief system. If I didn't want to uphold traditional marriage, I would be inconsistent at best and a hypocrite at worst. And I honestly believe if you knew me, you would never level the charge of being mean. I'm anything but that.