Post by Mike Miller on Feb 27, 2019 14:49:40 GMT -5
Earlier this week, someone sent me a short podcast from "Christian Business Insights." I had never heard of them, but the person wanted my take on the host's response to the question as to whether "spiritual leaders" needed to be seminary trained. Of course, I would have wanted to clarify what was meant by the term "spiritual leaders," but the host of the podcast creates confusion by conflating biblical elders with business leaders who are Christians. At times, it's hard to figure out what he's talking about. In under 12 minutes, he rambles all over the place, and is dead wrong on pretty much everything he says. He argues that there is no biblical precedent for the existence of the office of pastor or for the practice of any church leaders being financially compensated. He also talks about all the damage done to millions of people because of the idea that businessmen need seminary degrees to pray with their employees. I mean, does anyone anywhere believe that? So, the bottom line is that this podcast episode is a mess. The host is either largely ignorant of Scripture, or he is dishonest. He not only ignores relevant passages, but his interpretation of the ones he discusses is a train wreck. He erects and torches strawmen. And he claims a knowledge of New Testament Greek that he certainly does not possess.
Anyway, the reason I'm posting this is not that I think this guy presents any arguments of substance that need our attention. But this is an excellent example of why we need biblical discernment. You can find all kinds of weird teaching on the internet, and just because a guy has a podcast does not mean he knows anything about his subject matter. Oh, and I also answer the question about the necessity of seminary training. The short answer is that "spiritual leaders" do not necessarily need seminary training. Pastors/elders need some kind of high level training in theology, biblical studies, biblical languages, and other relevant subjects, and even though a seminary degree is not required, seminaries are currently the most available option in our part of the world. The link to the podcast is below, followed by my response:
Podcast: christianbusinessinsights.libsyn.com/should-you-be-seminary-trained
My response:
First, he says that there is no biblical precedent for people called pastors like we have today. He says the Bible only talks about elders and overseers. The Bible actually uses three terms interchangeably: pastor(shepherd), elder, and overseer (bishop). These all refer to the same office. See Acts 20:28 where Paul tells the elders, who are also called overseers, to care for the church (the term here is shepherd or pastor). In 1 Peter 5, Peter tells the elders to shepherd (pastor) the flock, exercising oversight. The Greek word for pastor is the same word for shepherd, and it is used to refer to those who are appointed elders/overseers of local churches.
Second, he says there is no biblical concept for paid pastors. That is also false. In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul talks about how he never took money from the Corinthians, even though he had every right to. He uses numerous metaphors, including an Old Testament saying from Deuteronomy 25 that says, "You shall not muzzle and ox when it treads out the grain." He also notes how those who worked in the temple got their food from the temple (they didn't have outside jobs, and the priests didn't own land). However, to be explicit, he says in verse 14, "The Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel." 1 Timothy 5 also quotes from Deuteronomy 25 as well as from Jesus to make the case that elders should be paid.
Third, he says that Paul doesn't say anything about education for elders. He says it's only about "quality of character and not about biblical knowledge." That is wrong. The very passage he quotes is from 1 Timothy 3, but he neglects the part that says he must be "able to teach." Also, the qualifications for elders in Titus 1 (ignored by the podcast guy) says that elders "must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine." This means that a requirement for a pastor is that he must have been taught sound doctrine and must have a knowledge base sufficient to be able to teach others.
Fourth, he is firm that the running of the household is the same as running a business. While a household would likely have employees, meaning the elder must manage that business well, it is a stretch to say that managing a household is the equivalent of managing a business. Many businesses were run out of homes in the first century Greco-Roman world, but not all of them. This is an example of forcing an idea on the text that isn't there.
Fifth, he says Ephesians 4 is a mistranslation (though the ESV uses the word "shepherd," which is the same word for "pastor"). He quotes one scholar from the 19th century (who is technically correct, but only when talking about the nominal use of the word but not the verbal form), completely neglecting virtually all biblical scholarship that would completely disagree with him. What else could it mean to say that some in the church hold the office of "shepherd?" That's what a pastor is! He obviously doesn't read Greek, so he shouldn't pretend to be an expert in the biblical languages.
Sixth, he is confusing matters by conflating the terms "spiritual leader" with "pastor/elder." The question was about those who are spiritual leaders. Not all spiritual leaders are elders. He then starts talking about business leaders, which is a completely different category. I have never heard anyone say that a Christian business leader needs a seminary education. No one says that a manager can't pray with an employee if he doesn't have a seminary degree. I'd like to find even one source who makes that claim. He calls this one of Satan's greatest ploys. Well, if it were actually a real thing, I guess that might be the case. We have lots of spiritual leaders in our church that don't have seminary education. I've never heard anyone push back on that.
Seventh, he says the idea that seminary training is required has caused "incalculable harm to millions of people." That is quite an assertion. In fact, I think it is an unsubstantiated claim that is frankly quite absurd.
So, do spiritual leaders have to have a seminary education? Of course not, but I don't know of anyone claiming that. Do pastors/elders/overseers need a seminary education? Technically no. But we do need some form of high level theological education. We have to be the ones trained in biblical studies, systematic theology, biblical languages, hermeneutics, leadership, and a host of other areas essential to carrying out the assignment. Whether that occurs in a seminary or not is irrelevant, but in our day and age we don't have a lot of other options.
Finally, I don't know anything about the guy in the podcast, but he could use some biblical training himself. He is speaking authoritatively on a subject that he doesn't know very well. He might be a really good business man and church member, but I would want leaders in my church to have a better grasp of Scripture than he does.
Anyway, the reason I'm posting this is not that I think this guy presents any arguments of substance that need our attention. But this is an excellent example of why we need biblical discernment. You can find all kinds of weird teaching on the internet, and just because a guy has a podcast does not mean he knows anything about his subject matter. Oh, and I also answer the question about the necessity of seminary training. The short answer is that "spiritual leaders" do not necessarily need seminary training. Pastors/elders need some kind of high level training in theology, biblical studies, biblical languages, and other relevant subjects, and even though a seminary degree is not required, seminaries are currently the most available option in our part of the world. The link to the podcast is below, followed by my response:
Podcast: christianbusinessinsights.libsyn.com/should-you-be-seminary-trained
My response:
First, he says that there is no biblical precedent for people called pastors like we have today. He says the Bible only talks about elders and overseers. The Bible actually uses three terms interchangeably: pastor(shepherd), elder, and overseer (bishop). These all refer to the same office. See Acts 20:28 where Paul tells the elders, who are also called overseers, to care for the church (the term here is shepherd or pastor). In 1 Peter 5, Peter tells the elders to shepherd (pastor) the flock, exercising oversight. The Greek word for pastor is the same word for shepherd, and it is used to refer to those who are appointed elders/overseers of local churches.
Second, he says there is no biblical concept for paid pastors. That is also false. In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul talks about how he never took money from the Corinthians, even though he had every right to. He uses numerous metaphors, including an Old Testament saying from Deuteronomy 25 that says, "You shall not muzzle and ox when it treads out the grain." He also notes how those who worked in the temple got their food from the temple (they didn't have outside jobs, and the priests didn't own land). However, to be explicit, he says in verse 14, "The Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel." 1 Timothy 5 also quotes from Deuteronomy 25 as well as from Jesus to make the case that elders should be paid.
Third, he says that Paul doesn't say anything about education for elders. He says it's only about "quality of character and not about biblical knowledge." That is wrong. The very passage he quotes is from 1 Timothy 3, but he neglects the part that says he must be "able to teach." Also, the qualifications for elders in Titus 1 (ignored by the podcast guy) says that elders "must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine." This means that a requirement for a pastor is that he must have been taught sound doctrine and must have a knowledge base sufficient to be able to teach others.
Fourth, he is firm that the running of the household is the same as running a business. While a household would likely have employees, meaning the elder must manage that business well, it is a stretch to say that managing a household is the equivalent of managing a business. Many businesses were run out of homes in the first century Greco-Roman world, but not all of them. This is an example of forcing an idea on the text that isn't there.
Fifth, he says Ephesians 4 is a mistranslation (though the ESV uses the word "shepherd," which is the same word for "pastor"). He quotes one scholar from the 19th century (who is technically correct, but only when talking about the nominal use of the word but not the verbal form), completely neglecting virtually all biblical scholarship that would completely disagree with him. What else could it mean to say that some in the church hold the office of "shepherd?" That's what a pastor is! He obviously doesn't read Greek, so he shouldn't pretend to be an expert in the biblical languages.
Sixth, he is confusing matters by conflating the terms "spiritual leader" with "pastor/elder." The question was about those who are spiritual leaders. Not all spiritual leaders are elders. He then starts talking about business leaders, which is a completely different category. I have never heard anyone say that a Christian business leader needs a seminary education. No one says that a manager can't pray with an employee if he doesn't have a seminary degree. I'd like to find even one source who makes that claim. He calls this one of Satan's greatest ploys. Well, if it were actually a real thing, I guess that might be the case. We have lots of spiritual leaders in our church that don't have seminary education. I've never heard anyone push back on that.
Seventh, he says the idea that seminary training is required has caused "incalculable harm to millions of people." That is quite an assertion. In fact, I think it is an unsubstantiated claim that is frankly quite absurd.
So, do spiritual leaders have to have a seminary education? Of course not, but I don't know of anyone claiming that. Do pastors/elders/overseers need a seminary education? Technically no. But we do need some form of high level theological education. We have to be the ones trained in biblical studies, systematic theology, biblical languages, hermeneutics, leadership, and a host of other areas essential to carrying out the assignment. Whether that occurs in a seminary or not is irrelevant, but in our day and age we don't have a lot of other options.
Finally, I don't know anything about the guy in the podcast, but he could use some biblical training himself. He is speaking authoritatively on a subject that he doesn't know very well. He might be a really good business man and church member, but I would want leaders in my church to have a better grasp of Scripture than he does.