Free Will vs. Destiny

[mrquack]

Mike,

You might be able to better explain Free Will and Destiny better than I can. These have been debated forever and probably will.

After several debates about Free Will and Predestination, I am still not satisfied with any one's explanation. I came to an understanding and would like to know if it is Biblical.

My idea is that God knows the outcome of any event ahead of time not because he specifically orchestrated us like puppets, but that He can see the infinite repercussions of everyone's decisions. He has the ability to see the infinite possibilities. In this way, He "Knows" what will happen, but we still have Free Will.

[Mike Miller]

Would you believe this is the second time today I've responded to a question relative to this subject?

First, let me ask you to check out the thread on page 3 of this discussion board titled "The Elect." I think you can get to it here:

askmike.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=7

Read that and see if it answers your questions. If not, give me some follow-up, and I'll see what I can do.

However, let me just say this about your question. Destiny is not a term we theologians like to use, because it implies more of a fatalistic view that is meaningless. We do, however, like to speak in terms of predestination, which carries the sense of deliberateness and purpose.

And as for the concept of "free will" being posited against predestination, two things: First, biblically, there is no such thing as a completely free will. Regardless of one's views, the Bible is clear that God is at least able to manipulate the will--to cause people to do certain things--thereby rendering the will something less than free. Second, however, I will affirm both human will/agency and responsibility as well as the complete sovereignty of God. We are not puppets, but God's will is carried out perfectly, not just because He is a good predictor, but because He is God and will have His way.

Anyway, I don't mean to seem to be splitting hairs. Just trying to be as accurate as I can so as not to be misunderstood. Let me know if I can clarify further, but as you indicated, this is a centuries-old debate that is not likely to be settled by the likes of me.

[mrquack]

I'm still pondering and confused, it is a big subject. I did read the previous threads and must apologize cause the following is random and unorganized.

I have heard a lot of leaders say that God wants everyone to accept Christ. Really? Have I been misled? What I'm gathering is that God creates some humans beings just to destroy them. I get that if He does this, it is all to be glorified. I just have a hard time, obviously from my feeble-minded human view, of seeing God as just and merciful if he would create someone to sin, especially post-Jesus.

Yes they make that choice, but do they really, if their sinful choices are necessary to His plan. For example Judas, created in the womb by God, had betray Jesus. We all say he had a choice to betray Jesus and hate him. But I feel bad for the guy, sometimes.

Obviously, the betrayal of Jesus is instrumental in His crucifixion. And had Judas chosen to beg forgiveness from Christ instead of hanging himself, he would have been forgiven. But I can't understand why God would create a person who does crack, then has a kid, neglects/abuses them and in turn they grow up with almost no future to then do crack, and so on.

It would be wonderful to bring all these people to Christ but I find so many hearts hardened. I just see a world full of so many fallen and so much sin and don't see God glorified hardly anywhere. If I were God I would be angry and saddened, which brings me back to the teaching, "God wants everyone to come to Christ."

First, why am I saved? I am no better than the next. Why would God condemn the Iranian when He clearly intended Jesus for the Jews and Gentiles alike. I suppose this human perspective is why the Unitarianists, etc. have strayed from the truth.

Also, I can see why God hardened Pharaoh's heart. I can see why the Jews were exiled again and again. But I can't see what glorification comes from the horrible things that happen to children across the globe.

I just guess I have a desire to see God more active. There's no more pillar of fire, or smiting. I guess that I think more people would be drawn to God if they could experience Him more dramatically.

However, I am reminded of "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29 and our call to glorify. I do think part of the problem is that the saved are not doing much glorifying these days.

[Mike Miller]

Ok, brother. Here we go, but first, let me apologize for taking so long to respond. I've been really busy. And second, let me say that I'll try to address as much of your question(s) as possible, but as you said, you were pretty random and unorganized.

Now, as to the issues of God wanting everyone to be saved and God creating people to sin, etc. I must refer you to two previous answers given on this site that might help:

"How Many Wills in God?" askmike.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=15

"1 Timothy 2:1-6 and Calvinism" askmike.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=31

As always, I'm open to follow-up questions if those don't help.

As to your confusion, let me say, "Welcome to serious biblical theology." I am so happy that you are wrestling with these concepts, because most believers just shrug them off. The fact is that God's ways and thoughts are far, far above ours (Isaiah 55:8-9), and as hard as we try, we will never completely comprehend Him. Of course, that does not mean that God is beyond knowing at all. He has revealed Himself, so we can know Him, but we will never know Him fully. He is too great for that.

I love how Paul handles these subjects. After dealing with the sovereignty of God in Romans 8-11 (where he answers, by the way, the objection that God is unjust with "Who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"), he finally breaks into praise:

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?" For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:33-36 ESV)

In other words, the reality of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are side-by-side in Scripture, but who can possibly understand completely? This is what we call "compatibilism," namely that God controls every thing that is done, but we are responsible for every thing that we do. How can that be? I have no idea. But that is the teaching of Scripture. We take it by faith, and we praise the One who is Lord over all. He is sovereign and perfect and loving and good.