Prayer and the Sovereignty of God

[taylor510ce]

Mike,

Over the past year I've really been struggling with the "effective prayer." We Know that James 5:16 says that "the prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working."

And again in Exodus 32:11-14 we see the picture of Moses praying on behalf of the people for their sins, "reminding" God of his promise when God was about to wipe the people out. And so verse 14: And the Lord relented fromt he disaster that he had spoken of bringing on His people."

Here are two examples of prayer changing things.

But in God's sovereignty- Him knowing everything from the beginning, and knowing the end, electing people to salvation--how can my prayer for a lost friend be effective if God already knows their eternal outcome? You know, if it's determined that they are elect, or not, why does my prayer for them matter to a God who has already decided? For anything--how does my prayer "change" things if they are already decided?

Pertaining to this morning's sermon, I was thinking about these things, as I was earnestly praying for a dear lost friend to be drawn to the Lord. I don't have the power. I can share the Gospel, but if God has already determined that this person is not elect...why does my prayer matter?

--MJ

[dannybouysou]

Understanding prayer as a dialogue and not a monologue has always helped me.

[Mike Miller]

The following is actually and answer from an earlier thread titled "The Elect," regarding prayer and evangelism and the sovereignty of God. See if it answers your question, then feel free to ask follow-ups.

Great questions! These are issues most everyone asks.

First, we share the Gospel because people cannot be saved without hearing it. The means by which God has ordained that people be saved is the preaching of the Gospel. As Paul said in Romans 10:14, "But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" Could God have devised another way to save people? Sure. He's God. He can do whatever He wants. But He didn't. Instead, He graciously allows us to be part of the saving of souls. People are saved by grace through faith, and in order for them to believe, they must hear the Gospel in which they are to place their trust.

Also, we share the Gospel to glorify God. Declaring the Gospel is not just to save people, it is to declare the grace, power, and majesty of God to all peoples. Jesus said in Matthew 24 that the Gospel would be preached to all nations as a testimony. God is to be proclaimed and glorified to the ends of the earth, and we do that through the preaching of the Gospel. Again, how wonderful that God involves us in the spreading of His fame.

You see, I think that we sometimes think that our mission is to win people to Christ. That is not entirely true (stay with me here). While we are to strive to win people to Jesus, which is a glorious thing to be involved in, our mission is to be His witnesses. Our mission is to proclaim the Gospel. The good news about that is that every single time we proclaim the Gospel, we are fulfilling the mission. When people don't repent and come to Jesus, that is not failure. Of course, we want people to be saved, but every time the glory of God is declared in any way, He is magnified, and that is success.

So, why do we tell people about Jesus? So that God will be glorified and people can be saved. I have to say that, personally, discovering these truths in Scripture has fueled my fire for missions and evangelism. The more I ponder these profound truths, the more I want to tell the world about my God.

Second, we pray because prayer is the means by which God does things. It isn't that we alter God's plans. That can't happen. No, but God calls us to pray before He acts so that He is the one who receives the glory. He does things when we pray so that no one else can receive the credit. "But," someone will say, "won't God do those things anyway?" Well, (and this might sound like an evasive answer, but I don't mean for it to) that's none of my business. God tells us to pray, so we pray.

But there is another aspect to prayer. As you said, you love praying. Yes! Prayer is a wonderful endeavor. Prayer means fellowship with God. Why pray? If for no other reason, we pray so that we can spend time with God. Oh, what a privilege that He beckons us into His throne room for divine fellowship with the Creator of our souls! Check out Romans 8:26-27 and Hebrews 10:19-22. Through Jesus, we don't need a human priest to approach God. We can go to Him any time we need to and find comfort, strength, and direction. And in addition, He involves us in His sovereign plan by leading us to ask for the things He intends to do (Romans 8:26), thereby glorifying Himself through our praying.

[Follow up]

In response to dannybouysou---

thanks for the encouraging words. I have always agreed that prayer is a way to hear from God, not just list my needs. It warms my soul to know fully that God hears. I think it is the significance of my prayer that I'm struggling with.

to Mike Miller--

I think I should read the book "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God" by J.I. Packer...

I agree that prayer is a blessing of an event. That I can speak with the Almighty Lord stirs my soul and brings me joy (prayerlessness=joylessness)...I also totally agree that being in fellowship with God, if nothing else, is a great "reason" (besides obedience) to pray.

My follow up question is (i think it's going to sound like a series of questions, sorry): Is God sitting on the edge of his throne (I am not being sarcastic) awaiting our prayers? I mean, if prayer is the means to God's actions, is He awaiting it to reveal His glory?

Let me use an example: I have a lost friend, Patrick. He is in need of the conviction of the Holy Spirit leading to repentance and salvation. I know that I can be a light in Patrick's life, but when it comes down to it, I do not have the power to bear on my friend's heart. So, I pray and beseech God that He would draw Patrick to himself. If it is NOT in God's will that Patrick be saved, is my prayer wasted? Or is God just waiting for me to pray more so that he may show His glory and miraculously save Patrick?

Also, could you address the Moses situation as well? "God relented?"

Thanks for taking the time to deal with all of these questions.

[taylor510ce]

Also, I forgot to log in, so, this is me, Taylor510ce.. who posted the reply.

[Mike Miller]

First, I think everyone should read anything written by J. I. Packer.

Second, God is not sitting around waiting on us to do anything. He is God, and He does not depend on us (or anything else, for that matter). In His sovereignty, He has ordained the means by which He will do something. In other words, if He chooses to show His glory by using your prayers in the salvation of Patrick, then He will move you to pray for Patrick. "But," someone will ask, "then why should I ever do anything? I'll just wait for God to 'move' me, and if He doesn't, then oh well, it wasn't His will." But I will refer you again to my comments on compatibilism, which explains how God's sovereignty does not relieve us of responsibility. You can find that post here: askmike.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=104

As for God "relenting," please see the thread titled "Does God Change His Mind?" found here: askmike.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=33

[dannybouysou]

J.I Packer is terrific.